Episode 15 | Leadership Vs Followership: Knowing When to Lead and When to Follow

00:00:00 Erica: Welcome to students of life where healing and cute but is necessary.

00:00:03 Courtney: For growth gets uncomfortable. But staying stuck isn't an option.

00:00:07 Erica: We're not here to preach. We're here to process out loud in real time.

00:00:11 Courtney: No titles, no masks, just truth, transformation, and a whole lot of accountability.

00:00:15 Erica: I'm Erica.

00:00:16 Courtney: I'm Courtney, and we're all just students of life.

00:00:19 Erica: Class is in session. Are you tired of just consuming content and not actually changing? Then it's time to download our free e-book. Three Principles of Strategic Living. It's not motivation, it's strategy. This short, powerful guide shows you how to take control of your time, your goals, and your growth by treating your life like a business. No fluff, just a framework that works. And when you're ready to go further, join our students of Life Inner Circle. It's our private Facebook community for people who don't just want to grow, they want to execute. You'll get early access to episodes, exclusive Q and A's, and real conversations with people leveling up in every area of life. Hit the link in the show notes or visit Students of Life podcast dot com to grab your free e-book and join the Inner Circle today. Let's get strategic.

00:01:32 Courtney: Welcome to the Students of Life podcast. I know that it has been a while since we've been here, but it's so good to be back. Yes. You're welcome. How you doing, babe?

00:01:48 Erica: I was fine until I heard the audience applause in my ear unexpectedly.

00:01:53 Courtney: Well, I had the clap full force. You know what I'm saying?

00:01:56 Erica: Yeah, it's been about six months.

00:01:58 Courtney: Yeah, it's been. It's been a.

00:01:59 Erica: Minute. Yeah, it's been a minute.

00:02:00 Courtney: Yeah it is, but, um, we're getting back at it though.

00:02:04 Erica: Yeah. It's so good to be back.

00:02:05 Courtney: To be what we're good at. Say it one more time. We what? It's so good to be what.

00:02:10 Erica: Oh Lord, it's so good to be back.

00:02:14 Courtney: No, you shouldn't have. You shouldn't have. No! Stop it, you guys.

00:02:22 Erica: Oh my God.

00:02:25 Courtney: So what's up? So what are we what are we doing today? Or how are we going to introduce ourselves after being gone for so long?

00:02:36 Erica: Um, I mean, you know, we're same people.

00:02:40 Courtney: Yeah we are.

00:02:42 Erica: A little bit is changed.

00:02:44 Courtney: A.

00:02:44 Erica: Little, just a little bit. Uh, outlooks on life has changed a little bit. You know, when you, when you go through things, um, personal, emotional, whatever it teaches you things about yourself.

00:02:55 Courtney: Well, that's a student of student's life.

00:02:57 Erica: Exactly.

00:02:58 Courtney: Yeah. We wouldn't be students of life if we didn't go through things, right.

00:03:02 Erica: But that's the purpose, right? Of the live and learn.

00:03:04 Courtney: Yeah.

00:03:05 Erica: Life is still a lesson.

00:03:07 Courtney: It always will.

00:03:08 Erica: Be. Life is a lesson. Every day. Every day.

00:03:11 Courtney: And if you don't learn the lessons that you're learning while living, they will repeat.

00:03:17 Erica: Oh, absolutely.

00:03:18 Courtney: And that's one of the, the greatest things that I that I've learned.

00:03:21 Erica: Absolutely.

00:03:22 Courtney: What we don't learn the lesson. It will be repeated.

00:03:25 Erica: You know, I think today is going to be a great lesson.

00:03:28 Courtney: Well, I hope so. You know, sometimes as individuals, people, you know, we struggle with being the best version of ourselves.

00:03:39 Erica: We do.

00:03:40 Courtney: You know, because maybe we don't question it or we just don't know. Sometimes I don't know which, which is which. I, um, I try to give too much credit, but deep down I know the I know the truth.

00:03:52 Erica: Keep your truth to yourself. Yeah.

00:03:56 Courtney: I'm just saying.

00:03:56 Erica: Yeah. Keep keep your truth to yourself, Mr. Lewis.

00:04:01 Courtney: You ain't gotta bite your lip like that now.

00:04:03 Erica: Mhm. Yeah, I do.

00:04:10 Courtney: Well, since Erica doesn't think that you guys are ready for Kourtney's truth. I keep it at bay for right now.

00:04:17 Erica: Thank God.

00:04:18 Courtney: Yeah.

00:04:19 Erica: Ain't it good?

00:04:19 Courtney: Yeah. Hallelujah.

00:04:23 Erica: So what's today's episode about?

00:04:26 Courtney: Well, today's episode is about leadership and followership. It was, um, something that was on my mind. It's been on my mind for a very long time. And it's something that we don't navigate properly based on how I hear these conversations being had. Yeah. You know, um, for instance, we talk about leadership a lot, but we've always heard about it, you know, it's highly romanticized. I said.

00:04:54 Erica: Oh.

00:04:54 Courtney: Yeah, you know, because when I grew up, you know, I didn't think of it any other way because of the people I loved and I loved to follow. Like with Todd McFarlane, you know, like his, it was a, it was kind of like a small documentary on, on um, g. G. For TV but.

00:05:15 Erica: You real old.

00:05:15 Courtney: But I think it was tech TV then.

00:05:17 Erica: You real old.

00:05:18 Courtney: It was tech TV and, and I loved that show because it showed who he was, his leadership as a, as an individual and how he got from being a kid that was, uh, playing baseball in college to not being able to play baseball because he missed his knee up being in a trailer and all he could do was draw.

00:05:38 Erica: Mhm.

00:05:39 Courtney: And they showed that journey from there, sending seven hundred letters being, um, declining. Yeah. Rejected for it. Uh, then he worked for for Marvel. Did Spider-Man. A lot of big comic book characters that we all know. Then he started, helped start Image comics, did spawn and started all these other, um, you know, elements. You know, uh, as well. But that's what we were shown. Mark Cuban That's what I grew up on.

00:06:11 Erica: Mhm.

00:06:12 Courtney: Steve Jobs is what I grew up on.

00:06:14 Erica: Mhm.

00:06:15 Courtney: But one thing that they never really did is talk too much about the people who.

00:06:20 Erica: Get them there.

00:06:21 Courtney: Help get them.

00:06:21 Erica: There. Yeah.

00:06:22 Courtney: Like, you know, no one ever really talked about it.

00:06:24 Erica: You know, it's like, like we say all the time. Everyone knows Steve Jobs, but who knows why Wozniak.

00:06:32 Courtney: Most people don't.

00:06:34 Erica: Right.

00:06:35 Courtney: You know, but the reality of that one is, is that there would be no Steve Jobs without Steve Wozniak.

00:06:44 Erica: Mhm.

00:06:45 Courtney: You know, in the sense of Steve Wozniak was still going to be somebody because he knew how to do the thing. Yep. Steve Jobs didn't know how to do the thing.

00:06:54 Erica: He had a vision.

00:06:56 Courtney: He had the vision. And he did have a burden that other people didn't have. But I think that was because he had something to prove to himself, too. But regardless of that being part of the conversation, the fact is, is that we just romanticize, excuse me, we romanticize leadership a whole lot in this country, and we never talk about followers or followership. We don't do it.

00:07:21 Erica: Well, you know, for this episode, I think we're going to we're gonna organize a little bit different. Typically, we save our questions till the very end.

00:07:30 Courtney: Okay.

00:07:30 Erica: But I want to give our listeners, um, a question to ponder on as we talk through this. And the question today is why does modern culture constantly talk about leadership but rarely discuss followership? Keep in mind, right. Most people believe society has a leadership problem. What if the bigger problem is that we have a followership problem? Um, we tend to celebrate the leaders, the visionaries, founders, influencers, and decision makers. We tell people to be a leader and not a follower. Yet every successful family, relationship, business team and society depends on people who know how to cooperate, sacrifice, align, and move toward a shared vision, leadership, and followership. Believe it or not, y'all. They're not. They're not opposites. They're complementary functions that require that are required for, um, our collective success.

00:08:29 Courtney: Yeah. Excuse me, guys, I gotta keep clearing my throat. I apologize. And you don't have to look at me like that. But, you know, we do have a leadership problem, and not in the sense of is if it's bad, we have a misunderstanding about how we speak about it. Like, say, for instance, this right here. You know, it's a huge pet peeve of mine. And it's when I'm online and I hear a lot of talks about leadership and it's mostly regarded in in regards to relationships. You know, in general, and we talk about leadership, but we never truly define it. But the question is this, and I have for you, do you know what leadership to lead? What does it mean like to you? What does it mean to you?

00:09:28 Erica: You mean in the relationship or in general?

00:09:30 Courtney: Like it doesn't matter.

00:09:32 Erica: I mean, I'm asking because, um. In life, in reality, right? I play both roles at work. I am a leader based on, you know, my career and what I do. But at home, I'm absolutely a follower. So it depends on which one you want.

00:09:51 Courtney: Well, I'll take both.

00:09:52 Erica: Okay. Um, I mean, every day, you know, in my my career and y'all, this is strictly my opinion. You don't have to agree. That's fine. But a leader is someone who, who doesn't manage. Right. There's someone who can not only tell you what to do, but show you how to do it. It's someone who has walked in the trenches and will walk in the trenches with you, who has done what you're currently doing, who has earned the right to tell you what to do and how to do it? Um, I feel like there are a lot of people who call themselves leaders, you know, in, in our corporate world who have never stepped foot in their, their follower shoes. How can someone follow you when you don't have a destination?

00:10:40 Courtney: Well, and that's the, the core of it though, is that, um, to lead, you have to have a destination. Period.

00:10:49 Erica: Absolutely.

00:10:49 Courtney: But it's not how we have this conversation. You know, based on how I hear the conversation being discussed and how it has always appeared, it has never been about the destination. You know, we've had this idea, especially in relationships, because that's what we're talking about, is that it's more of a maintenance, you know, like we use leadership as maintenance. Yeah. You know, um, and it's not maintenance. Leadership is about a destination somewhere to go. You know, it's, uh, and every day in our everyday life say things like, man, we have a lot of pressure about, you know, about leading, but even we screw that up. We screw it up because we defined it wrong or never defined it. And we just have a belief of what we believe it is and not truly knowing what it is. We think just going to work, you know, No. Being a labourer is one of these things. We go to work, we label, we pay bills. Maintenance. That's not leadership.

00:11:53 Erica: I think men have been taught that leadership and providing coincide with one another and go hand in hand. That's not always true.

00:11:59 Courtney: But the truth. And I won't lie and say it may not. It's not that. It's not a part of it, but it's not the main agenda of what it means to lead somebody. Like when Moses led the people to the Promised Land, they had somewhere that they had to go. But the fact that they had somewhere to go, he was the leader to get them there. But that's what the leader does define a destination. And we get to whatever the mission, you know, the end goal, the destination, the mission, the end of the mission until we start another one back up again. And it has been misdiagnosed, if you ask me, based on how we have these conversations for a long time.

00:12:39 Erica: Yeah. Well, you know, you brought, um, Steve Jobs up earlier, and I do believe that visionaries are natural born leaders. They have they have this vision in mind. They have an end goal in mind. They just need help getting there. They have. The destination is set. He knew where he wanted to be. He knew what he wanted Apple to be. He knew that. He also knew he couldn't do it alone. Right now, the downside to that is he was a complete asshole and pushed people to their breaking points. But had he not done that, we wouldn't have the Apple tech we have today.

00:13:13 Courtney: Correct. And that's the example that we take even into our homes. That's what we take into work most of the times because we think that's what leadership is. And it's never truly defined. And what we have to do is understand what it means to be a leader and what actually is happening. What do they know that the people that follow have no idea about? But I will sit up and say that the person that that leads or leader, they have a hell of a burden on their hands.

00:13:50 Erica: They they do not discussed. They do. They have a hell of a burden on their hands, but they also have, um, responsibilities, right? That, that those of us who, who do not lead like that, like just take someone for instance, like, um, we'll use the person that leads my company, right? This person is the way they think. This person has thoughts that would have never, ever crossed my mind, you know, now having conversations with them has broadened my horizons quite a bit. It honestly has, you know, having one on ones and them sitting down with me and talking to me and changing the way I view things. But overall, people who lead multi-million dollar companies, billion dollar companies, right? Like you mentioned, Mark Cuban earlier, Mark Cuban does a million and one things right. But even still, in all of those million and one things that he does, he's a visionary. And in my opinion, that's what a leader is. You're a visionary. You're how can I take my vision, bring it to fruition and keep the people aligned to get us there? That's the part that we all leave out, you know, a lot of times too. It's how do I keep the people together enough to get us there?

00:15:09 Courtney: I think that's a hard one because now we're talking about either you're going to shake people up to know how to work together, or either two, you got to keep getting rid of people in the sense of work.

00:15:22 Erica: Mhm.

00:15:22 Courtney: You know, until you find the right mix, until you get the people who actually understand because it's a lot of people that just don't get it.

00:15:30 Erica: There is. I mean, there, there are a ton of people who just don't get it. And I can tell you from first hand experience, Courtney, it's difficult and it makes your everyday life very hard. It does, you know. Trying to be a person to get people to the end goal. But you realize this team ain't right. You know what I mean? And then it becomes, okay, like, can I get them there? And if I can't get them there, unfortunately, they can't be here. They can't be with me doing what I do. Um, but I think even more than that, you know, speaking about jobs, it's worse in relationships and families.

00:16:10 Courtney: And it's worse in relationships and families because say like at work, you know, as a leader, you know what you can do? You can fire. Yeah, you can fire people. Yeah. You have the right to do so. Mhm. But when you get home and I'm normally talking about marriage.

00:16:28 Erica: I would love to see a husband right there wife up and see what happens.

00:16:31 Courtney: Right. You know what I'm saying?

00:16:33 Erica: You you laughing because, you know.

00:16:34 Courtney: No need to be written up sometimes. Yeah. You talking about I ain't I ain't finna run away from it. Now take this right up. You you being real right now, bro.

00:16:46 Erica: Damn hard out.

00:16:48 Courtney: Here. Yeah.

00:16:49 Erica: Look, glad I ain't your wife.

00:16:51 Courtney: Oh, well, I don't know whose wife you are, but no power to em. It must be a strong brother.

00:16:59 Erica: Well, chill out, bro, chill out. You doing too much?

00:17:03 Courtney: Hey, you started it.

00:17:04 Erica: Got too much dip on your chip.

00:17:05 Courtney: Calm down. Hey, I'm just saying, I take it to hell. That's all I'm saying.

00:17:10 Erica: Everyone who listens to this episode and everyone before this knows to hell is straight. Where you go.

00:17:17 Courtney: To the depths of it.

00:17:18 Erica: To the man, look.

00:17:21 Courtney: To the to the last layer. Hey, that's hey, that's where I go.

00:17:24 Erica: Terrible.

00:17:24 Courtney: But you're getting me off track though. Woman. But again, like when you go home, you can't fire, fire kids, fire wife when you get home or fire husband when you get home, you can't do that. And that's what makes the dynamic inside of a home a little bit more frustrating sometimes than than work, because it's work is made to be that way.

00:17:49 Erica: You know, I believe it does make it more frustrating, but it also makes it more important, you know, because and I'm saying because at work, right, you get on the job. Cool.

00:17:59 Courtney: You can yeah.

00:18:00 Erica: I can get this same position. Or if I play my cards right, a better one somewhere else. Right. But I can't leave my family. I can't walk away from my family. I mean, people are going to say, yes, you can. You can get divorced. I guarantee you, nobody married would ever say that. It's not that easy.

00:18:20 Courtney: It ain't that easy.

00:18:21 Erica: When you build a life with somebody, you have children, you have joint finances, you have businesses. You know, you have all these things that tie you to one another. Walking away is not the first option ever. I mean, and I mean that like ever, you know what I'm saying? So it becomes a. I think the question to ask ourselves is, why is it easier for me to follow at work when I have someone who can actually lead at home as well?

00:18:48 Courtney: Well, the real issue here is the real issue here is the fact that, um, the structures are totally different. Of course, the structures are totally different. So when you go to work every day, you know, it's easy to, to, to follow because that's the structure of, of work. And also there's a consequence for not listening. And if I can say there's a difference, one of the major differences is, is consequence. And the consequence becomes at work. If I don't listen to this CEO, manager or supervisor, I will get written up. And if this happens enough, then I will lose my job.

00:19:27 Erica: Correct?

00:19:29 Courtney: But it doesn't work at home that way because the home don't have that kind of structure. It wasn't designed to, to, to have those type of consequences, you know, laid out.

00:19:40 Erica: But it shouldn't.

00:19:41 Courtney: But the difference is this right here in some way, it it should, but it shouldn't. I know this question.

00:19:49 Erica: We about to agree to disagree aren't we.

00:19:51 Courtney: Well, I mean whatever you want, but like say, when you go to work every day, the consequence is immediate. Uh-uh. The consequence is immediate. But at home the consequence is not immediate. You have them, but it may be another ten years. Let's say, for instance, five, ten, fifteen, twenty years down the line. Example would be if we say we prioritize health, but then we never prioritize health. Um, and then twenty years down the line.

00:20:18 Erica: Now you have cardiovascular issues. Yes. Type one diabetes. Yeah. And somebody else take care of you.

00:20:23 Courtney: Somebody correct. Somebody has to take care of you, but you didn't take care of that when you should have. But say, for instance, if if say, for instance, if the home did operate like like a job did. And the consequence was immediate. We would value it a lot more. We would value it a lot more, but we don't. I ain't gonna say that we don't value it. We take it for granted, though.

00:20:47 Erica: Now that yes, we take it. I'm not going to sit here and say that that we don't value it. That would be a lie if I said that about families. But I believe we do take things for granted. Absolutely.

00:20:58 Courtney: We take it for granted and and say, for instance, we don't know how to follow because again, there's nothing wrong with following because the home itself, no matter who leads, no matter who does this thing, it has to have someone who leads. But the only way to get wherever you're trying to get is to listen. It's a listen, and it's to understand what it means to follow. And we should start, you know, um, you know, actually caring about what it means to do that because we talk down on, on, on followership. We always have.

00:21:34 Erica: Well, yeah, but, you know, I mean, like, you know, you and I were discussing this, um, we have leadership conferences, right?

00:21:42 Courtney: We do.

00:21:42 Erica: We have leaders can escape and leaders can, can learn to do all these things and can learn to be all these things. But in, in, you know, in reality, we're praised for being leaders. But at no point in time has anyone ever said, you know what, followers make up businesses. And that's true. Followers make households run. That's true. And it's not a bad thing to be a follower. It's not a bad thing to know how to listen to someone and execute a plan. Because without followers, plans are not executed. Leaders can't. I can't come up with a plan, execute the plan and see it through to the very end.

00:22:24 Courtney: But that is one of the biggest issues at homes though, you know, um, you know, it's executing the long term vision because we're so short minded. Yeah. You know, we're so short minded that we don't think about what could happen a few years down the line. We care about tomorrow.

00:22:42 Erica: Yeah.

00:22:43 Courtney: And this is one thing. What happens with within, like, say, for instance, followership because we don't focus on it. People who follow, no matter where you are, they don't understand how to make sacrifices most of the time. They don't understand how long you have to actually sacrifice to get to a desired result or outcome.

00:23:04 Erica: Well, I hear you right, and that's probably because no one is focusing on them, telling them how important their role is. You know, you have a million folks. Oh, it's so important to be a leader. We should strive to do this and strive to do that. But who is telling somebody, hey, without you, this leader can't do shit. And that that's being neglected and that's being overlooked. So mind you, this is I'm speaking strictly from American culture. Because if you look at other cultures, that is not the case at all. You know, um, teamwork like as, as a whole and most I'm not going to say every other, but most other cultures for people of color, right? The teamwork matters. Like we have one or two people to lead us, but we understand that it's the rest of us behind them that make this thing work. We are the heartbeat of whatever is happening. But here in the US, we're taught from an early age, you know, you be a standout, you be a star, you be the best of the best, and you excel. And in doing that, we're screwing our kids because we're not teaching them how to actually be a team and work as a team. So therefore, we grow up, we get married. Now you got two people who want to lead, but there's nobody to follow. And we wonder why families are falling apart today.

00:24:20 Courtney: And there's a lot of pressures put on the individuals they believe to lead. Yeah, that they want to lead. But at the same time, the other side of that because you just said both want to be leaders, but sometimes the pressure is put on the person that needs to lead, but at the same time, simultaneously, nobody wants to follow too.

00:24:38 Erica: Correct.

00:24:38 Courtney: But still put the pressure on the person to lead, but give a big, uh, problem in following and listening and executing missions and goals becomes a problem.

00:24:49 Erica: You know, this reminds me of, um, I think you and I discussed it, uh, the Jill Scott quote right from the Breakfast Club where she was like, if you can tell me what to do, you can tell me what to do. But if you can't tell me what to do, then you cannot tell me what to do. And I think that went over a lot of people's heads, right? Because what she was saying was, if you can tell me what to do and you can lead us to this destination, I will absolutely listen to you.

00:25:18 Courtney: But if you.

00:25:19 Erica: Can't, but if you cannot get out of my way. Yeah. And let me do it myself, you know, and unfortunately, a lot of people have been put in that position. Um. And because of that, we have a lot of people butting heads, a lot of, you know, husband and wives who are, who are at odds every day because realistically, maybe she's a better leader than you. But you know, you have, you have this gender normative idea that, oh, a man's a provider and a man is a leader. Says who? Like who said it has to be that way?

00:26:00 Courtney: Well, that's just how things have been, you know, set up and say, for instance, like, even like from the era of my father, you know, that was the idea. You know, the man does X, Y, Z, which makes him the leader.

00:26:14 Erica: Yeah.

00:26:15 Courtney: And I'll say this too, this, this is the next part is, um, like my father was a, was a great man, but he wasn't a good leader.

00:26:22 Erica: Your mother was though.

00:26:23 Courtney: My mother was.

00:26:24 Erica: Though. Absolutely.

00:26:25 Courtney: But she never really got to showcase how good she was as a leader, although she was better.

00:26:31 Erica: Yeah, she.

00:26:31 Courtney: Was.

00:26:32 Erica: Better. He didn't listen.

00:26:33 Courtney: Yeah. You know, he didn't listen well and he maintained things.

00:26:36 Erica: Yeah.

00:26:37 Courtney: But that again, that becomes a misconception of what leadership is.

00:26:42 Erica: But, you know okay, so I'm glad you brought that up because if we if we think about this, think back, right? Because I was raised by my grandparents who were the same age as your parents. But if you think back, right, or even go back to like, uh, babe and great grandmama, right. Back in the day, women led households, women kept all that shit together. Women made sure everything got done like men would bring a paycheck home. He was a provider. Yes, they did that. Right. But women, they were the one that raised the children. They were the one that kept the house. They were the one that made sure everyone was where they were supposed to be, and they were the ones that made sure everything got done with those goals were hit for the most part. Um, now part of that too is because we couldn't work. Then we couldn't have checking accounts, we couldn't buy a house and things like that. So that was our role. And now somewhere along the line, you know, over the years, these roles have been have been flipped a little bit. And I'm not saying that that was right or that was wrong. All I'm saying is, somewhere along the line, we have been taught that the man is both the leader and the provider. When that doesn't have to be the case.

00:28:00 Courtney: Well, I don't think that it has to be the case. But at the same time, I don't believe that it's always right. Because at the same time, just because you're a man, I don't believe that makes you a good leader.

00:28:10 Erica: It doesn't. And that's exactly what I was saying.

00:28:12 Courtney: I don't believe that, you know what I'm saying. But I do believe that some of the issues that I've encountered or that I've seen is that women want to lead. You know, and at the same time, they don't know how to follow either, you know. And so we've come across a issue today that is not a man versus woman issue. It's a coordination issue. Like no one knows how to coordinate to get to, to the desired result. I mean, because if we're alive, we want a desired result and say, for instance, taking care of a home's what we have to do to, for a home that's only maintenance. That's it. That's maintenance. That's it. There's no leadership in that at all. You know, you might have moments where you have to lead with something, but at the end of the day, the lead to lead or means to go to a destination. Mhm. You got to go somewhere. So all those things to keep up a home, that's just maintenance. And that's not what leadership is. So like leadership, everybody don't have vision.

00:29:14 Erica: Nope.

00:29:15 Courtney: Everybody don't understand systems and structures. Nope. People don't get that. A lot of people don't understand how to navigate the nuances of finances. That's part of leadership. We ain't talking about maintenance. You know what I'm saying? We ain't talking about when the light go out. I got to go put it in. We ain't talking about that shit. We talking about something totally different, you know? And when we talk about leadership, that's how we talk about leadership. We talk about leadership as in maintaining what we have and not going any further.

00:29:41 Erica: Well, that's because that's what unfortunately we have been taught. You know, overall, we've been taught and we've been shown that as long as you can meet the status quo, you're leading and you're doing a damn good job. But that's even like, mind you, that shit don't work at work though. If you are a leader at work in your industry or whatever, right? You can't just maintain the status quo.

00:30:02 Courtney: No, you got to excel. You got to exceed it.

00:30:04 Erica: But you don't bring that home.

00:30:06 Courtney: Yeah.

00:30:08 Erica: I mean, you know, like we're saying that people don't at home, you follow at work, but you don't follow at home, you lead at work, but you don't bring those same skills at work back home. And they they apply. You can still use them. Yeah. It may look a little bit different. It may be friends a little bit different, but they absolutely still fit. The scenario is different, but the end goal should be the same. What the fuck are you trying to get to? Where the fuck you trying to go? And if you don't know, scoot over and let somebody else do it.

00:30:38 Courtney: But that becomes the major issue. And I think that's more of a modern issue than anything.

00:30:42 Erica: Oh, absolutely.

00:30:43 Courtney: And it's a modern issue because everybody wants to be a leader, and everybody wants to put a pressure on who they believe is the leader. And not understanding what it really means. Because to really follow, you need to understand what it means. What does it mean to lead? And because now that means that it's something that I don't know the reason why they are there, the reason why these people have to lead whoever the hell they are, they're leading for a reason. And that reason is because they got something that I don't have. Mhm. Like the majority of people who who follow couldn't jump. You know, like we'll just use Apple because we were talking about them, they couldn't jump into being a CEO.

00:31:22 Erica: Oh hell no.

00:31:23 Courtney: And I'm gonna use what's his name, Tim Cook, for example, the reason why he became the CEO, not only because Steve Jobs appointed him, but Tim Cook did every job in Apple. Yeah. And he understood every part of the Apple business logistics, the computer side of it, the programming side of it. Whether he did or not, he understood because he worked in all these areas.

00:31:49 Erica: Mhm.

00:31:49 Courtney: And so what he became good at, it became his focus. Like, say, for instance, jobs major focus as as the CEO was vision because that's who he was at his core.

00:32:01 Erica: Yep.

00:32:01 Courtney: But that wasn't Tim Cook's focus because that's not what he was good at. It's not what he was good at. You know, so we're dealing with these scenarios where we need to truly understand what does it mean to be a good leader? What does it mean to be a good follower? And so like in the home, there's a lot of pressure put on people who need to lead. But the people underneath who need to follow or who should listen. One of the biggest problems is, is that they don't truly understand the nuances of what it means to be a leader. They don't understand that to hold up a family based off of systems and everything that you have to put in place and make those things work, that's not easy for everybody to do because everybody don't think that way. That's that's difficult. And this, again, is not a man or a woman thing. Never is, never has been. But that's what we make it.

00:33:01 Erica: Well, you know, I think too I hear what you're saying, but also just another another side of this is I don't think people understand, um, how much power comes with, with being able to follow, you know, and I say that because again, I've said it like once or twice already, but without someone being able to follow to make this come to fruition, you have nothing.

00:33:26 Courtney: Like, um, it was, uh, here recently. Um, you know, um, you know, your aunt, you know, was talking to, uh, to Trinity, you know, and I was thinking it was Tracy and it was Diana. And it was like, you know, if you can't work, work for yourself. But I told her.

00:33:43 Erica: Yeah.

00:33:43 Courtney: But I told her, you know, what was at the table? I was like, I want you to understand, you need to go to work because you need to know what it means to properly follow.

00:33:51 Erica: Mhm.

00:33:52 Courtney: You need to truly understand that because like with me, I did that. And it took me a long, a long time to truly appreciate being a good follower, you know, because I had to get out of my own way as a young man. I had, you know, I had no one to teach me what it means to be to, to follow. So I caused way more problems sometimes than I should have. Mhm. Not not knowing how to how to properly navigate some of these scenarios. And I won't, um, ever back down from, from, from, from saying that I was in the wrong sometimes because I didn't know how to follow.

00:34:30 Erica: Well, you know, in career wise, that's where you and I are total opposites, right? Like I, um, for me, it was easy to follow at work because I had people who took me under their wing very early on. Right. You know, who showed me the ins and outs, who saw something in myself that I didn't even see, which is what got me to where I am today. But unfortunately for me and you as well, I'm speaking about the importance of followership because I live that in my real life. Right? I couldn't I was a great follower at work, but when I came home, it didn't apply.

00:35:07 Courtney: Yeah, that is true.

00:35:08 Erica: You know, it did and it did. I'm not going to lie. You know, it is what it is. I always try to bring real life scenarios to every every episode that we have. And the truth is, I was a great follower at work, had no problem doing what needs to be done. Not just that, but the best of the best top percentage, right? Always. Um, didn't translate to home very well because it was one situation where I felt like I've been told what to do all day at work. Why the hell you gotta tell me what to do when I'm at home, right? It sounds funny now, saying it out loud, but I was also young and naive and we've been together forever. We grew up together, right? So I was I was learning, but on the flip side of that, I've also realized that I'm a hell of a leader at work. I don't leave my family, I just don't. Yeah. You know, so I have learned, um, my role at home is to say, Courtney, bro, just tell me what you want me to do. It makes life easier for you and for me both. Uh, what do you want me to do? When do you need it done by? If you give me. If you give me a due date, I got you. I'm good. Let's go. Um, but otherwise, you know, we're just kind of. We spent a few years just stuck in limbo because we were butting heads so much. You stopped, and, um. I didn't know how to do it. And that caused that set us back a couple years.

00:36:30 Courtney: Yeah, it did, it did.

00:36:31 Erica: You know, and I can admit that out loud and say in that instance I was wrong. Um, you know, we've had a million and one discussions about that, but I think now at home, um, our life is easier, a bit more pleasant because the roles are defined and there's nothing wrong with that.

00:36:49 Courtney: There's nothing wrong with it. And the only thing we have to do is truly understand and know that to make the home prosper the way that we want, it's how do we work in a coordinated effort and, and knowing that being in alignment is power.

00:37:06 Erica: Yes.

00:37:07 Courtney: That's really what, uh, one of the biggest things that we face is being out of alignment with one another and not even knowing that we're out of alignment because we don't even know how to address some of these problems that we're having.

00:37:19 Erica: Right?

00:37:21 Courtney: Alignment is one of the greatest things that we can have inside of a inside of a home. Because if you don't have it, then everyone is doing whatever the hell they feel like doing.

00:37:30 Erica: Mhm.

00:37:31 Courtney: And whether you define it or not, I don't care who you are, whether you define it or you don't define it, you're going to end up somewhere. And that is the truth.

00:37:42 Erica: What did um, oh, the places you'll go. What was that line in the book? Courtney. He ended up in the, the nothing place.

00:37:51 Courtney: Yeah. Yeah.

00:37:52 Erica: And there was nothing there. Yeah. So that's where you're going to end up. You're going to end the nothing place.

00:37:57 Courtney: Yeah. You will because you don't have to define it for it's for it to exist. Mhm. And the destination is real. You don't have to define it. The world will do it for you too, if you don't make it deliberate, it will.

00:38:12 Erica: And, you know, this is just, um. I feel like for for people of color, specifically black people, that's dangerous, you know, because we don't the world defines enough for us, especially right now. We don't need to have the outside world interfering with our with our, you know, our family life, our relationships. It's much better for you to define where the hell you want to be. And you two work together to get there.

00:38:39 Courtney: Yeah.

00:38:40 Erica: Whether that's two men, two women, a husband or wife. I don't give a shit. I don't care how you look at it, it doesn't matter to me. The fact is, we are speaking on relationships as a whole. No one is exempt. Someone has to lead and someone has to follow.

00:38:55 Courtney: And also, there's another point in this too is where true? One of the true um meanings inside of leadership is even knowing when to let other people lead to.

00:39:07 Erica: Oh yeah.

00:39:08 Courtney: You know what I'm saying? As a leader, I step aside because I know you're good at that, and I need you to tell me what to do as well, because I don't understand this thing as well as you do. And I believe that we could do really well. It truly understanding that is leadership too. Everybody has a role to play, and there's nothing wrong with allowing somebody else to shine.

00:39:33 Erica: Delegation is absolutely leadership.

00:39:35 Courtney: It is. Yes it is.

00:39:37 Erica: Honestly, it's leadership one hundred one, if we're being honest.

00:39:39 Courtney: Yeah.

00:39:40 Erica: You can't be a leader until you can delegate things because you can't do it all. And you have to know like what people are good at, right? Like we'll just, again, we'll use us for an example. You like money in the bank, as do I, but I also like keeping lights on in my car, in the driveway. You don't like paying bills, so that's what I do. To be fair, I don't auto pay, but I set it up so it counts.

00:40:06 Courtney: Okay.

00:40:07 Erica: Um. or either um example, I don't, I don't do yard work. It's hot and I have allergies. Right. But you do so while you're doing yard work, what in the house is something that you would do that I could take off you while you're out there. You know what I mean? It's just it's learning. It's learning your partner, it's learning your person. And it's not necessarily saying, oh, I have to cross over into what they do. No, but you just you can lower the burden for them a little bit. You know, if they're doing something that you're just not going to do, or you can cross over, cross over and help.

00:40:47 Courtney: But with that, you know, again, these things aren't about me and versus women.

00:40:54 Erica: Not at.

00:40:54 Courtney: All. This ain't men versus women.

00:40:55 Erica: No, no, not at all.

00:40:57 Courtney: This is the the truth is that in these relationships, what we have to truly understand is that some days you may be on. I might be off or vice versa.

00:41:11 Erica: Okay.

00:41:12 Courtney: You know, it might be on and off. This is part of it. But only thing we have to do is. And keep in mind, it's the it's the destination. And so no matter how we end up getting there, that's the goal.

00:41:25 Erica: We just get there.

00:41:26 Courtney: And I have to accept that. I know Erica may not be at one hundred percent every day. Hell, some days she might not even be at fifty. And I'm okay with that, you know what I'm saying? And I'm alright with that. Because at the end of the day, what's important, the destination, as long as it's defined and we know where we're going. I carry this on my back as long as I need to, because I know you go show up, you know, but everybody has bad days. Yeah, I have bad days. Yeah. And it's not for me to beat you down because you had a damn bad day. You had a bad month or a bad quarter? Bad two quarters. Yeah. Those things happen in real life.

00:42:01 Erica: That's life.

00:42:02 Courtney: We have unreal expectations of the people in our life, whether you know we're the leader or the follower, we have unreal expectations of one another.

00:42:10 Erica: Yeah.

00:42:10 Courtney: And so, me personally, I know that I ain't gonna never get somebody that's always one hundred percent that's unrealistic. But we agreed to the destination and that's what we had.

00:42:24 Erica: Mhm.

00:42:25 Courtney: Even if that means I gotta drag us to there to get there on my back. That's what I'm gonna do. Because that's the mission. That's where we're supposed to do. That's where we're supposed to be. And sometimes we, you know, we don't understand our position. We don't understand how we can show up. But if it's truly defined, like our, um, our values and principles and how we prioritize things and we define those things, it changes the whole dynamic of the relationship.

00:42:59 Erica: Mhm. Now that that's a whole, it's a whole discussion by itself.

00:43:05 Courtney: It is.

00:43:06 Erica: It's one that needs to be had. But that's a discussion by itself. You know, um, I don't think that a family can be successful if two people who are leading the family, um, don't align with principles, morals and values.

00:43:21 Courtney: Yeah. We were going to head in the, let's put it like this. What it's going to end up happening. Say for instance, like for, you know, without a good leader, the person who, who's good at following, they will drift.

00:43:34 Erica: Mhm.

00:43:35 Courtney: And the person who's a good leader and the people who follows dragging them through hell, they're going to get exhausted.

00:43:44 Erica: They're going to quit.

00:43:45 Courtney: They're going to quit, and they're going to give out.

00:43:46 Erica: Mhm.

00:43:48 Courtney: It's inevitable. You know, so, um, that's how how it is sometimes, you know.

00:43:54 Erica: Not sometimes I honestly believe that's how it is all the time.

00:43:57 Courtney: It is.

00:43:57 Erica: Yeah. We're not, we're not going to, um, downplay that one at all. You know, normally our episodes, they're all light hearted and funny, but this is something that the more and honestly, the more I talk to people and the more I watch social media and YouTube, this shit is disheartening.

00:44:17 Courtney: Boy, what you talking about?

00:44:18 Erica: You know what I mean? Like, it's you sit here and you watch these videos and I know you and I, sometimes we watch videos and look like, what the hell? And what world does this shit? Make sense, you know? But you have social media influencers telling you how to be a husband, how to be a wife, how to be a partner.

00:44:38 Courtney: Oh boy. That's one of the.

00:44:39 Erica: And now, now we taking like real life, real relationship advice. Not not from not from like legit therapist, you know, not from doctors, not from marriage counselors. This is a person down the street who bought a fucking camera and started talking into it. And then they got a million followers. There's a million folks there leading astray.

00:45:00 Courtney: Well, I'm I'm not talking down about it because I watch it all the time. Tonight's conversation. It's a nice conversation.

00:45:08 Erica: But go.

00:45:08 Courtney: Ahead. You know, I don't dislike him because I love what they're doing, you know? But, um. With that, you know, this is one of the reasons why I was thinking about this episode too. It was because of the, um, the fact that I never heard anyone in these videos ever talk about followership. I never heard I've only heard them ever discuss leadership.

00:45:36 Erica: Yeah.

00:45:36 Courtney: Who's going to lead? How to lead. And, and we talking about it in a very vague, arbitrary, uh, undefined way. Like it's an expectation of leadership, but it's undefined. That's one of the most, um, scariest things I've seen when it comes around like this conversation, this, this type of conversation. You know, to talk about something in an undefined way.

00:46:03 Erica: Well, you know, I think, um, if we're bringing up tonight's conversation. I have a love hate relationship with tonight's conversation. Um, and that's because I feel like they have a habit of pandering to people and saying what folks want to say, and that's dangerous. That is dangerous as hell. You know, like you got people up here asking them real questions. I also sidebar some of these questions. These folks need therapy, not not the panel on tonight's conversation. Okay. And so that that by itself is dangerous.

00:46:38 Courtney: They get up literally. They some of these, a lot of these people get up there just to have what they already believe validated in some way.

00:46:47 Erica: Yes.

00:46:48 Courtney: And that's troubling.

00:46:49 Erica: It is. You know, but that's my issue though, right? Because you have these people, mind you, not everyone on that panel is married. Okay. no, not everyone on that panel has had a successful long term relationship.

00:47:04 Courtney: I think Katie is the only one who.

00:47:06 Erica: I think she was married to.

00:47:07 Courtney: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. True.

00:47:09 Erica: But everyone else is not. And you're giving you single motherfuckers are giving people marriage advice.

00:47:16 Courtney: You know.

00:47:16 Erica: That's dangerous.

00:47:18 Courtney: Because, you know, um, out of every time I've heard this show, I've heard them always say, leave them. And, you know, like in a marriage scenario, leave them instead of maybe you need to work this thing out.

00:47:31 Erica: Yep.

00:47:33 Courtney: I've heard them say leave and quit way often than I ever heard them ever say. Maybe you just should work out what you're going through.

00:47:42 Erica: Because when you're single, it's that simple.

00:47:44 Courtney: It is.

00:47:45 Erica: When you're single, it's okay. You're going to cry a little bit. You know, listen to some nineties R&B. You know what I'm saying? You'll get over it. You go out with your girls, go with your boys, drink a little bit. You meet somebody new. Cool. When you're married and everything you have is intertwined with this person. It's not that easy. And I'm speaking from someone with twenty three years experience.

00:48:07 Courtney: Yeah.

00:48:08 Erica: Um, if you go to tonight's conversation, it's a married person and you ask these single people for advice. You deserve whatever bad advice they give you. You do because you're stupid.

00:48:20 Courtney: You said there was so much conviction.

00:48:21 Erica: And I mean it.

00:48:22 Courtney: I liked.

00:48:23 Erica: It. I said, like, that's stupid. If I was texting, it'd be in all caps. Yeah, I mean that from the depths of my soul. You're stupid. Because instead of doing that, how about you talk to your friends who have a successful marriage? I got a homegirl. You know Janay, right? She made a post not long ago on Facebook. Um, and she said that she would never take relationship advice from people who did not have a successful marriage. That is the most intelligent shit I've ever heard somebody on social media say, you know? And that's simply because she's been through enough bad relationships to know. I don't take advice from people who haven't made it to the destination I'm looking for.

00:49:02 Courtney: Yeah.

00:49:03 Erica: Right. You know, you go and you talk to in this regard, right. Twenty, thirty years successful relationships. That's not saying you haven't had hard times. What that's saying is you stuck it out. You figured out what works. And now, yes, you are a leader in relationships. You have the right to give somebody advice.

00:49:25 Courtney: We have a lot of advice. Good advice to give people.

00:49:30 Erica: Courtney, you know how many relationships you and I have fixed sitting down and talking to them?

00:49:34 Courtney: Yeah, yeah. Because they didn't know how to navigate it.

00:49:38 Erica: Right.

00:49:39 Courtney: But it's a little bit different, you know, and I can speak for myself because I know what I did. You know, um. One of my gifts and or strengths, I say that strengths because it's not just a gift, but it's a strength. It's something that I learned, but I learned how to pivot real quick.

00:49:56 Erica: Mhm.

00:49:57 Courtney: You know, and so as soon as I see that things aren't working, it took me about the same amount of time that it took for me to learn how to apologize properly to you. It took me the same amount of time in that process to, um, to truly learn this, um, as well, you know what I'm saying? But what I really had to understand and learn in that process was that to properly lead a home and a family, you got to really think about everybody that's involved in it. Erica. Yeah. You got to think about everybody that's here, you know, about, you know, because my decision affects not just me. It affects.

00:50:36 Erica: The whole.

00:50:37 Courtney: The whole family, the whole family, you know. So the question I would have to you is, what does it mean to be a bad follower, though?

00:50:48 Erica: That's a good question. Um, like just coming off the dome real quick based on experience. Uh, I would say that a bad follower is someone who gets in the way, you know what I mean? Someone who makes life more difficult instead of easier. It's the exact opposite of a helpmate. Yeah, that's what it is, in my opinion. You know? It's someone who who you have say, for instance, you know, you someone like you saying, hey, Erica, you told me you wanted this one more house. You tell me what house you want. You told me you want this house on somewhere between twenty and thirty acres. Here's a plan to get there. If I do everything in my power to not listen to that or to forget the end goal. I'm not doing you any service.

00:51:37 Courtney: But that's that's a real that's a real problem that we are contending with, though.

00:51:42 Erica: Absolutely.

00:51:43 Courtney: It is we are contending with because we can't get out of the way of, um, of our immediate desires in the moment. You know, like.

00:51:51 Erica: We want what we want, when we want, how we want.

00:51:53 Courtney: It. You know, like, say, for instance, we want stability but don't recognize the sacrifices that got to be made. You know what I'm saying? Like, we want results, but we don't like to be held accountable.

00:52:02 Erica: Oh, yeah.

00:52:04 Courtney: You know? Yeah. You know, and those are like real things that we have to, um, contend with.

00:52:10 Erica: Mhm.

00:52:12 Courtney: It's either this or that. If you want this, we gotta do this.

00:52:15 Erica: Mhm.

00:52:15 Courtney: And we will have to do it for this amount of time.

00:52:17 Erica: Mhm. You know that that's honestly according to no different than, um, you know, you telling me for our first house, right? Erica. No coach. No toured for this long. You know what I mean? Like. Like we got to stop going out to eat at these kind of restaurants for this long, you know? It's sacrificing. Right. Um, or even when we bought, you know, when we built the house we're in now, you know, it was a. All right, Erica, we want another house. You know, we have Xavier now, this was not big enough, blah, blah, blah, blah. Here's what we got to do. Here's the plan. Make it happen. Okay. But that's how it should be. You know, you should have someone who can tell you. You want this. In order to get what you want, you have to do X, Y, and Z. Now, if I don't do X, Y, and z, then I obviously don't want what I told you I wanted.

00:53:12 Courtney: Well. You do verbally, but in actions and your priorities as we see it. You know, earlier it tells your real story.

00:53:25 Erica: Yeah.

00:53:26 Courtney: Do you want it? Of course you do. But your actions might say, I like my current way of living right now. I love to go out to eat how I eat right now. You know what? I want to go get what I want to get right now. You know, like, hey, that person I want, I want that purse or, you know, hey, you know what? Let me go get that truck. I really want this truck. I'm gonna go get this truck. You know, disregarding.

00:53:49 Erica: The end goal.

00:53:49 Courtney: The end goal?

00:53:50 Erica: Mhm.

00:53:52 Courtney: Yeah. Sacrifices has got to be made. But it's something that I learned from my parents. Because when they built that home, they saved up like thirty thousand plus dollars, and they bought all their logs for that home and all the wood, you know, to structure that home. They saved the whole thing. But you know what they had to do? The real sacrifice is that Mama had to live somewhere she didn't want to.

00:54:15 Erica: Mhm.

00:54:16 Courtney: They did that for seven years.

00:54:18 Erica: Mhm.

00:54:19 Courtney: Strong. They collected everything they needed over those seven years. But they did it. But again, daddy, you know, he made sure that it happened, though. You know, she said, hey, this is what I wanted. This is what we need to do. Daddy's not good at spending money.

00:54:37 Erica: No. You mean saving money?

00:54:39 Courtney: Saving money? Yeah.

00:54:40 Erica: He could spend. Spend it. Oh, yeah.

00:54:42 Courtney: He wasn't good at saving it.

00:54:43 Erica: Mhm.

00:54:43 Courtney: That was her job, though.

00:54:45 Erica: Mhm. She did it well.

00:54:46 Courtney: And she did it well.

00:54:47 Erica: Mhm.

00:54:48 Courtney: He had the people to build the home, but she got him there.

00:54:51 Erica: Mhm. Yeah. But again, you know, it's like we said earlier, these are the roles. They're not gender roles. They're not who can lead the best. Would that be the husband or the wife? Whether that be, you know, if you're in a same sex marriage, which one of you two can do this better? Put that person on front and let them. Let them do it.

00:55:13 Courtney: Let them do what they good.

00:55:13 Erica: Shut up. Get out the way.

00:55:15 Courtney: And another part that you didn't mention inside of, you know, like followership. But I say what makes a good follower though, is good support, because this goes on and talked about for a lot, you know, that, um, like say for instance, to properly follow, you have to be able to be a good support to the person that's leading you because sometimes the leader is always pouring back into everybody else. But the question becomes, who pulls back? Excuse me? Who pulls back into the leader? And those are some of the things that we really have to put some focus into. Because to keep the leader going, to keep them strong, man or woman, they have to be pulled back into his oil well. They got to be given life.

00:56:04 Erica: Right. But I think, you know, I didn't and this is my fault, I think, but I didn't mention it because it to me that just makes sense. You know. Shut up, I know.

00:56:15 Courtney: Yeah.

00:56:16 Erica: Hush your mouth.

00:56:17 Courtney: I know it wasn't a bad thing. I'm not saying it like that. So don't don't take it as if it was something bad. It wasn't bad.

00:56:25 Erica: But yeah, I think, um, you do have to be able to offer support, you know, because somebody who's doing the heavy lifting, they need that. They need reassurance sometimes too.

00:56:34 Courtney: They do.

00:56:35 Erica: They know, hey, like, yeah, I get mad at you because you say I can't do X, Y, and Z, or I get mad at you because you're on my ass about doing this because you're holding my ass to the fire. Keep me accountable. But I appreciate you. I see you. Thank you.

00:56:53 Courtney: Yeah.

00:56:54 Erica: Those things matter.

00:56:56 Courtney: Yeah. Especially when you don't hear it.

00:56:58 Erica: Mhm.

00:56:59 Courtney: And when you don't hear it and you're running on E. Because we all run on E sometimes.

00:57:03 Erica: Mhm.

00:57:03 Courtney: And when we run on E, it comes out differently depending on who you are. And a lot of times it comes out as emotional instability in some way. It's just.

00:57:13 Erica: You know.

00:57:13 Courtney: How it comes out.

00:57:14 Erica: I was saying that that literally in this moment.

00:57:17 Courtney: Yeah.

00:57:17 Erica: I mean, I see you.

00:57:18 Courtney: Yeah. Oh well thank you.

00:57:20 Erica: You know.

00:57:21 Courtney: Yeah.

00:57:21 Erica: You're you're seen, you're heard, you're appreciated. Even when I pout and get mad at you, I understand there's an end goal. But what you're doing matters.

00:57:32 Courtney: You know.

00:57:33 Erica: And it makes a difference.

00:57:34 Courtney: You know, there's just. No, I appreciate it. You know. So. So I don't have to do later on, you know.

00:57:40 Erica: Boy, these listeners know better. They know better.

00:57:44 Courtney: Did y'all hear that slap? Slap it up.

00:57:46 Erica: That they know who. Who really run the show over here. So you cute. Hey, that was cute.

00:57:51 Courtney: Hey, I'll let you do what you're good at. I don't mind that. I'm not gonna interfere with that. Yeah. So I'm okay.

00:58:01 Erica: So I do, you know, I know we're getting close to time. You know, people statistics say, you know, you got about an hour before folks start checking out on you.

00:58:09 Courtney: Oh, yeah.

00:58:10 Erica: Um, but I do want to ask this question again to make sure they don't forget, you know, and it's, um, after hearing this episode, think about it. You know, why does modern culture constantly talk about leaders but rarely discuss followership? Why is that? Think about it. You know, and when you when you see this posted wherever you stream, leave us a comment. Let's talk about it.

00:58:36 Courtney: Yeah. So like with this you guys, is that the whole purpose is episode is to Who started reorienting this conversation about men versus women. Because the truth is, it's not about men versus women. It's just what you see. And we only talk about what we see. But the reality of it is, is about the destination. And we have to make a choice about who we choose to help us get to the destination. And we also have to choose who we allow to be our followers too. And in that process, we got to keep on navigating and pushing and working with one another and understand and know that it takes coordination and alignment to get what we're trying to get one day. And of course, the journey is never easy. You know, life is not like, you know, um, like a map, you know, like where everything is laid out for you already, you know, where to go. A lot of this map that we, that we navigate today is erased. And we got to make it up as we go. And sometimes that's not always answers in the midst of that. And to follow properly, sometimes you just got to trust. You got to believe and know the destination exists. And we will write the path to get there even if it don't exist. And so take this episode and think about it and, and share it with, with, with your husband, with your wife or your or your future wife or husband. And so everyone, this has been the Students of Life podcast, live and learn. Life is a lesson. Life is a lesson.

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